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	<title>Comments for Full Chisel Blog</title>
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	<description>A Traditional Woodworking Web Log</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:52:51 -0400</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Why I think laminated [laid] steel tools are better, restated. by Stephen Shepherd</title>
		<link>http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258&#038;cpage=1#comment-38531</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Shepherd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258#comment-38531</guid>
		<description>Joel,

The blade is tapered, and he will make a solid steel blade of the same configuration.

DJM,

The plane blades are great. Steel costs 5 times that of wrought iron in the nineteenth century and more earlier.

Dale,

Chris over at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.galoot-tools.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Galoot Tools&lt;/a&gt; imports laid steel replacement blades, they are thick and not tapered, but nice blades.

AA,

Many English makers imported and used Swedish steel as well, in the 19th century the costs were 5:1

David,

The Japanese tools are laminated in a similar manner, I converted a chisel over to Western.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.galoot-tools.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Galoot Tools&lt;/a&gt; sells laid blades for new planes.

Michael,

You are correct about being able to case harden wrought iron and mild steel, but it is a different process of encasing the piece with highly carbon materials and forcing them through reduction heat into the softer material.

Sorry if my subjective comment sounded bad, you are right and I apologize.

Gary,

I agree.

Chuck,

I am working on that one, I have made the suggestion to the blacksmith.

David,

Thanks for your comments.

Stephen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel,</p>
<p>The blade is tapered, and he will make a solid steel blade of the same configuration.</p>
<p>DJM,</p>
<p>The plane blades are great. Steel costs 5 times that of wrought iron in the nineteenth century and more earlier.</p>
<p>Dale,</p>
<p>Chris over at <a href="http://www.galoot-tools.com/" rel="nofollow">Galoot Tools</a> imports laid steel replacement blades, they are thick and not tapered, but nice blades.</p>
<p>AA,</p>
<p>Many English makers imported and used Swedish steel as well, in the 19th century the costs were 5:1</p>
<p>David,</p>
<p>The Japanese tools are laminated in a similar manner, I converted a chisel over to Western.  <a href="http://www.galoot-tools.com/" rel="nofollow">Galoot Tools</a> sells laid blades for new planes.</p>
<p>Michael,</p>
<p>You are correct about being able to case harden wrought iron and mild steel, but it is a different process of encasing the piece with highly carbon materials and forcing them through reduction heat into the softer material.</p>
<p>Sorry if my subjective comment sounded bad, you are right and I apologize.</p>
<p>Gary,</p>
<p>I agree.</p>
<p>Chuck,</p>
<p>I am working on that one, I have made the suggestion to the blacksmith.</p>
<p>David,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments.</p>
<p>Stephen</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why I think laminated [laid] steel tools are better, restated. by Kevin Haffey</title>
		<link>http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258&#038;cpage=1#comment-38530</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Haffey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258#comment-38530</guid>
		<description>FYI - &quot;Cast Steel&quot; and/or &quot;Crucible Steel&quot; was originally used as an indication of superior quality vs. &quot;Blister Steel&quot;, &quot;Shear Steel&quot;, and &quot;Double Shear Steel&quot; shear and double shear were terms applied to blister steel in Great Britain that indicated the amount of additional processing blister steel had undergone to get better uniformity in the final product. Cast steel and Crucible steel originally indicated that the material had been remelted in a crucible before being finished into bar, plate, etc. The feedstock originally used by Huntsman in his Crucible steel process was blister steel. The ingots produced were by today&#039;s standard miniscule - around 70 pounds. Today, a mid-sized ingot might weigh around 10,000 pounds or 5 tons. And yes, in the United States, there was a steel company named Crucible Steel, however, you shouldn&#039;t consider all tools stamped with that identity to have been made with product from that company, though they did produce tool steels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FYI &#8211; &#8220;Cast Steel&#8221; and/or &#8220;Crucible Steel&#8221; was originally used as an indication of superior quality vs. &#8220;Blister Steel&#8221;, &#8220;Shear Steel&#8221;, and &#8220;Double Shear Steel&#8221; shear and double shear were terms applied to blister steel in Great Britain that indicated the amount of additional processing blister steel had undergone to get better uniformity in the final product. Cast steel and Crucible steel originally indicated that the material had been remelted in a crucible before being finished into bar, plate, etc. The feedstock originally used by Huntsman in his Crucible steel process was blister steel. The ingots produced were by today&#8217;s standard miniscule &#8211; around 70 pounds. Today, a mid-sized ingot might weigh around 10,000 pounds or 5 tons. And yes, in the United States, there was a steel company named Crucible Steel, however, you shouldn&#8217;t consider all tools stamped with that identity to have been made with product from that company, though they did produce tool steels.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why I think laminated [laid] steel tools are better, restated. by David Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258&#038;cpage=1#comment-38528</link>
		<dc:creator>David Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 13:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258#comment-38528</guid>
		<description>Two things I&#039;ve wondered, and they haven&#039;t been hashed through in the comments here yet.
 
1) Is there an argument for laminating western irons when steel is no longer expensive? I don&#039;t know. I haven&#039;t ever seen anywhere that stated the reason for the irons being laminated was a function of anything other than cost of importing steel being greater than the cost of a smith&#039;s time. 

2) Is there really an argument that the stability and damping effect of the wrought iron is a material contributor to the function of a plane when compared to whether or not the plane is properly made with the iron properly bedded and wedge properly fit. I don&#039;t know. I would subjectively think that it&#039;s more the plane than the irons as long as the irons aren&#039;t some wonky shape that can&#039;t be properly fitted to the planes.

The preference I come to with older irons is the fact that they&#039;re cast steel, but I don&#039;t prefer the laminated edge of them over any other cast steel (like in chisels that aren&#039;t laminated). The cast steel fails in a predictable way, no surprising large nicks in a smoother, just uniform wear. 

The other issue I have with older irons is that a lot of them are too soft.  I&#039;d assume this is a function of ability to sharpen the irons with oilstones. I have left O1 untempered and not had too much issue with brittleness in joinery planes and in a pair of newly made hollows and rounds - planes that will not see knots, or likely very hard or abrasive wood, so the brittleness isn&#039;t an issue. I like the way it holds an edge, and I&#039;m not going to temper them unless I have to. I have not tried to sharpen them on oilstones, maybe I wouldn&#039;t be so high on them if I did. 

Anyway, in the modern era with power grinding and aggressive abrasives, I don&#039;t know if there is really a benefit to having laminated irons - aside from japanese planes where the steel is extremely hard and does not tolerate much in terms of temperatures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two things I&#8217;ve wondered, and they haven&#8217;t been hashed through in the comments here yet.</p>
<p>1) Is there an argument for laminating western irons when steel is no longer expensive? I don&#8217;t know. I haven&#8217;t ever seen anywhere that stated the reason for the irons being laminated was a function of anything other than cost of importing steel being greater than the cost of a smith&#8217;s time. </p>
<p>2) Is there really an argument that the stability and damping effect of the wrought iron is a material contributor to the function of a plane when compared to whether or not the plane is properly made with the iron properly bedded and wedge properly fit. I don&#8217;t know. I would subjectively think that it&#8217;s more the plane than the irons as long as the irons aren&#8217;t some wonky shape that can&#8217;t be properly fitted to the planes.</p>
<p>The preference I come to with older irons is the fact that they&#8217;re cast steel, but I don&#8217;t prefer the laminated edge of them over any other cast steel (like in chisels that aren&#8217;t laminated). The cast steel fails in a predictable way, no surprising large nicks in a smoother, just uniform wear. </p>
<p>The other issue I have with older irons is that a lot of them are too soft.  I&#8217;d assume this is a function of ability to sharpen the irons with oilstones. I have left O1 untempered and not had too much issue with brittleness in joinery planes and in a pair of newly made hollows and rounds &#8211; planes that will not see knots, or likely very hard or abrasive wood, so the brittleness isn&#8217;t an issue. I like the way it holds an edge, and I&#8217;m not going to temper them unless I have to. I have not tried to sharpen them on oilstones, maybe I wouldn&#8217;t be so high on them if I did. </p>
<p>Anyway, in the modern era with power grinding and aggressive abrasives, I don&#8217;t know if there is really a benefit to having laminated irons &#8211; aside from japanese planes where the steel is extremely hard and does not tolerate much in terms of temperatures.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why I think laminated [laid] steel tools are better, restated. by Chuck Nickerson</title>
		<link>http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258&#038;cpage=1#comment-38527</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck Nickerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 20:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258#comment-38527</guid>
		<description>Any chance he can taper the iron and offer them for sale?

I&#039;d love to bed one in some of my Clark &amp; Williams bench planes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any chance he can taper the iron and offer them for sale?</p>
<p>I&#8217;d love to bed one in some of my Clark &amp; Williams bench planes.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why I think laminated [laid] steel tools are better, restated. by Gary Roberts</title>
		<link>http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258&#038;cpage=1#comment-38526</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 18:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258#comment-38526</guid>
		<description>I wonder to what extent the use of iron planes makes a difference in the laid steel v solid steel debate? I&#039;ve always felt that the laid blade dampens vibrations more effectively than the solid blade. Add to that a wooden body and you have a very comfortable tool to use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder to what extent the use of iron planes makes a difference in the laid steel v solid steel debate? I&#8217;ve always felt that the laid blade dampens vibrations more effectively than the solid blade. Add to that a wooden body and you have a very comfortable tool to use.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why I think laminated [laid] steel tools are better, restated. by Kevin Haffey</title>
		<link>http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258&#038;cpage=1#comment-38525</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Haffey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 16:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258#comment-38525</guid>
		<description>Michael - if you case harden a piece of wrought iron, you&#039;ve changed that portion of it into steel - an alloy of iron and carbon, which can now be hardened. Wrought iron which contains very low levels of carbon cannot be hardened by quenching. Blister steel was made commercially by case hardening wrought iron bars. If you want a definitve review of 17th through 19th century steel making with an emphasis on English steel making, look for Steel Making before Bessemer, volumes 1 and 2 by K. C. Barraclough. You&#039;ll probably need to either purchase it used, or ILL it as the 2 volumes are now out of print.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael &#8211; if you case harden a piece of wrought iron, you&#8217;ve changed that portion of it into steel &#8211; an alloy of iron and carbon, which can now be hardened. Wrought iron which contains very low levels of carbon cannot be hardened by quenching. Blister steel was made commercially by case hardening wrought iron bars. If you want a definitve review of 17th through 19th century steel making with an emphasis on English steel making, look for Steel Making before Bessemer, volumes 1 and 2 by K. C. Barraclough. You&#8217;ll probably need to either purchase it used, or ILL it as the 2 volumes are now out of print.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why I think laminated [laid] steel tools are better, restated. by Michael D</title>
		<link>http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258&#038;cpage=1#comment-38524</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 18:22:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258#comment-38524</guid>
		<description>You state that you can&#039;t harden wrought iron -- that&#039;s not true.  You can go through a process called &#039;case hardening&#039; which simply layers on more carbon atoms.  You can read more about this in &quot;The Complete Modern Blacksmith&quot; by Alexander Weygers.

Also, I think you mean to say later in the post, &quot;This is completely subjective, so you can’t disagree with me...&quot; I think you meant to say, &quot;This is completely subjective, so you might have different view on the matter...&quot;.  If something is subjective, then it&#039;s definitely an arguable point.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You state that you can&#8217;t harden wrought iron &#8212; that&#8217;s not true.  You can go through a process called &#8216;case hardening&#8217; which simply layers on more carbon atoms.  You can read more about this in &#8220;The Complete Modern Blacksmith&#8221; by Alexander Weygers.</p>
<p>Also, I think you mean to say later in the post, &#8220;This is completely subjective, so you can’t disagree with me&#8230;&#8221; I think you meant to say, &#8220;This is completely subjective, so you might have different view on the matter&#8230;&#8221;.  If something is subjective, then it&#8217;s definitely an arguable point.  <img src='http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on Why I think laminated [laid] steel tools are better, restated. by David Gendron</title>
		<link>http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258&#038;cpage=1#comment-38521</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gendron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 05:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258#comment-38521</guid>
		<description>Stephen, is this the same process used in Japanese plane irons and chisels?
Is it possible to get laminated steel plane irons now a day, for western type plane?
This blog of your is facinating!
Cheers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen, is this the same process used in Japanese plane irons and chisels?<br />
Is it possible to get laminated steel plane irons now a day, for western type plane?<br />
This blog of your is facinating!<br />
Cheers</p>
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		<title>Comment on Making Varnish by franki</title>
		<link>http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=808&#038;cpage=1#comment-38518</link>
		<dc:creator>franki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2010 01:24:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=808#comment-38518</guid>
		<description>what is the ratio for the resin and the linseed oil?
do you have any idea</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what is the ratio for the resin and the linseed oil?<br />
do you have any idea</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why I think laminated [laid] steel tools are better, restated. by AA</title>
		<link>http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258&#038;cpage=1#comment-38516</link>
		<dc:creator>AA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Sep 2010 08:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=1258#comment-38516</guid>
		<description>Yesterday, I watched a documentary about the early steel industry in Sheffield, England. The iron ore available locally had a very high level of phosphorous which, at that time, made it unsuitable - rather too difficult with the available technology - to convert into steel; as a result, iron ore was imported from Sweden and used to make steel. Given this, it is possible to see that economics played some part - the iron would be made from cheaper local ores and the steel from more expensive imported ones - possibly lending some credence to the contention that laid steel tools were cheaper to produce. After all, at that time, labour was very, very cheap indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yesterday, I watched a documentary about the early steel industry in Sheffield, England. The iron ore available locally had a very high level of phosphorous which, at that time, made it unsuitable &#8211; rather too difficult with the available technology &#8211; to convert into steel; as a result, iron ore was imported from Sweden and used to make steel. Given this, it is possible to see that economics played some part &#8211; the iron would be made from cheaper local ores and the steel from more expensive imported ones &#8211; possibly lending some credence to the contention that laid steel tools were cheaper to produce. After all, at that time, labour was very, very cheap indeed.</p>
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